Featured, News, Opinion/Editorials

Should HP/Palm Take Legal Action?

By: Ryan St. Andrie, 11/16/2010 11:40 pm | 85 comments

When we first saw video of the PlayBook we were slightly miffed about how closely RIM’s new OS for the tablet copied webOS. Now seeing it in action in today’s hands on with Engadget it just blows our mind how RIM has pretty much made a carbon copy of webOS multitasking. This thing has a launch bar, the same type of gestures, and of course multitasking with webOS style cards.

Now one can say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but is this taking it a bit too far? Could they have at least put their own spin on it so this carbon copy wasn’t so obvious? In all honesty the Playbook looks mighty nice and fun to use. So good in fact, that if this thing comes out before the PalmPad it will make it look as if HP/Palm actually ripped off RIM.

One would have to think that HP/Palm would try to take immediate action to try and stop this thing. On the other hand it was only a matter of time until someone copied webOS due to it’s brilliance with multitasking. So what do you all think? Should HP/Palm take legal action since they do have the cards style multitasking patented?

[Source: Engadget via AboutwebOS]

About Ryan St. Andrie

Ryan is a WOR News Hound and super geek who is always working to melt his phone with the latest experimental kernels. He is husband to lovely wife Keira and father to adorable baby girl Kyla, ASE certified mechanic and self proclaimed gearhead turned to railroad mechanic. Last but not least lover of all things tech.

View all posts by Ryan St. Andrie →

PinkSox

Simple answer…YES! The markets are waaay to competitive for HP allow this kind of blatant rip-off!

Anonymous

I agree. Especially with the small market share that webOS currently has. They can not afford to let RIM take the very cornerstone of what makes webOS unique.
Kevin

HECK YES! RIM has obviously ripped off HP, and they need to do something about it!

http://www.twitter.com/jpartain89 Justin Partain

Its disgusting that RIM would do this, and we, OF COURSE, get the short end of the stick. HP/Palm does have a patent on the Card-Multitasking form, so in reality, it COULD bring a case. It all depends on the wording of said patent…. I wanna hear from a lawyer on whether its feasible. But yes, HP needs to do something about this.

Anonymous

Well we talked about this before and at first I thought it would be pointless. However, Im starting to change my mind.
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

They posted the patent link… and it seems like the Playbook stole every single little thing noted in the patent… I mean hell. I could have lived with stealing the cards idea… but after watching that last video… They stole cards, launcher gestures, exiting cards gestures, and the quicklaunch bar…. They literally stole the ENTIRE OS from Palm/HP and HP should absolutely do EVERYTHING they can to take them down…
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

They posted the patent link… and it seems like the Playbook stole every single little thing noted in the patent… I mean hell. I could have lived with stealing the cards idea… but after watching that last video… They stole cards, launcher gestures, exiting cards gestures, and the quicklaunch bar…. They literally stole the ENTIRE OS from Palm/HP and HP should absolutely do EVERYTHING they can to take them down…

gunderson

It would seem to make sense from a businness standpoint: HP owns patents on those features, and deserves to seek litigation. I will not be surprised if we hear of charges brought against RIM. Will be interesting…
Anonymous

Yes!!
http://twitter.com/orawas orawas

yes…yes they should… this is f**king ridiculous!
Anonymous

depends.. Is palm violating any of rim’s patents?

I’d bet yes…

Apple, palm, rim, etc.. all violate each others patents.

http://twitter.com/arthurthornton Arthur Thornton

And Palm (well, now HP) owns the patent to the SMARTPHONE!

HP owns more smartphone patents than anyone in the industry (because they bought Palm), so expect that HP is violating fewer of RIMs patents than RIM is of HP.

Rob

Yes but only because RIM was one of the companies in the works to buyout Palm.

They lost to HP fair and square, but decided “hey, rather than buy Palm, we can just rip them off”

So their obvious involvement in wanting to absorb Palm, but then deciding to just copy their IP instead definitely raises to question a number of business legalities.

You lost RIM, just admit it and bow out gracefully.
ShmungerWOS

Definitely! It would kill them to be robbed @ such an early point. And especially since they have a patent….
PAAAAALM!

J. Willis

Palm doesn’t have any “granted”patents for it so they can’t do anything as of now…i know things tho

ShmungerWOS

So y does every1 say they got patents? & what ‘things’ do u know?

J. Willis

Can’t legally say :(

http://anotherguy.us/ Tim Stiffler-Dean

But you can legally say that you “can’t legally say”? That’s either bull or irresponsible. Either way those types of statements don’t do anyone any good.
Ryan St. Andrie

Good point Tim. Plus everyone seems to forget that Palm holds one of the largest IP portfolios in the mobile tech world. That is the very reason so many companies wished to buy Palm. Lets just say that if HP truly wanted to they could have a viable lawsuit against every smartphone company out there. Palm patented the freakin smartphone!
J. Willis

All I said is publicly known, I’m just saying they don’t have a case
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

Shutup Willis. You clearly know nothing more than anyone else… People that have insider information either tell it or dont mention it… They don’t say HEY I HAVE INFO BUT CANT SAY IT…. Unless they are complete morons…

Gimpy_hb

f&ck yes they should sue the hell out of them if they can and put that craptastic(patent pending) os of theres out for good. rim has good hardware but software sucks!! im a non business user though.
http://Bungie.net The King of Halo

I wonder if it’ll turn out like the zoom feature Apple took legal action over when it was announced that the Pre would have it.
Rick

Yes!
Bicentennial

It has all patents and best OS. what is it doing nothing. Atleast someone is making it better.
We thought it will bring best hardware and release 2.0 to existing phones, didn’t happened.
It is like buying new bentley kept in garage as show piece and waiting for someone to steal it so it can file insurance
Al

The real question is WHY THE HELL DON’T we have an HP Tablet with Web OS yet ? If I have to wait past Jan I will buy an Ipad please HP It’s time to stop BS and ACT Now !
Need Not

This ripoff is so obvious, it’s a shame for RIM. In my opionon, the following should happen:
1) HPalm sues over RIM OR
2) HPalm gets license money from RIM and they must name their tablet “Playbook” with readable subtitle “totally inspired by HP webOS”

I would like the second one :)

P.S: Sorry for my english. Don’t know the exact wordings in some cases.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

haha lawl. except “totally inspire by HP WebOS” should be rephrased to “Blatantly stolen from HP WebOS”

Just like the family that won the lawsuit against OJ changed the books name to “How I Did It” lol

Ortwin

I don’t think they should take legal action. The webOS card metaphor is so brillant that everyone should use it. I’m happy to see it adopted by others. Of course, Palm still does it best so I’m not worried at all.
Jckatz

Yes if for no other reason than the Blackberry Pre…. I mean Tourch
Jamey

Yes they should definitely take legal action that is blatenly a rip off of palm!
http://sorli.com sorli

Hmm….makes some of us wonder. Palm not doing so well…so we’ll just copy their ideas and make it seem like we invented it.

I’d sue the heck out of RIM and let the cards fall where they fall. Sorli…
john

No! It disgusts me that the first reaction to anything like this is SUE, SUE, SUE! Is that really where we want HP’s attention? HP should focus their resources on continually improving WebOS so that the BB OS is obsolete. WebOS 2.0 is already leaps and bounds ahead of this. If they just keep up the innovation, it will be quite obvious who’s playing catch-up. Focusing on continuing to improve and outpace RIM will be a win for HP and a win for HP’s customers. RIM will be left wondering why their shiny new pad is once again looking like last decade’s news.

Besides, what happens if WebOS fails? RIM has provided a similar alternative, and I am all for options. Believe it or not, competition is GOOD for markets. Just because our patent office will award a monopoly to a broad concept every time a lawyer sneezes doesn’t mean that it’s good for technology. Microsoft, Apple, and IBM all ripped each other off, and we are all better off for it. Ideas do not deserve to be locked up in corporate monopolies. Just compete already!!

JDM

+1! Yes, I agree. Light a fire and create some movement… I hope it scares HP into something amazing.
eserrano250

Competition is good when the IP is recognized. Just look at the way the homebrew community goes about with open source. Everyone should get credit for their work and ripping people off is not the correct way to go about it. If RIM has licenced the webOS like multitasking, then I’m all for it, but if the ripped it off then HP should be loading up the guns as we speak.

john

What, exactly, did RIM “steal”? I am quite sure they created their own code and their background task management system. Does the UI closely resemble WebOS? Yes. Should that be patentable? Hell, no. Imagine where PCs would be if the concept of windows were patented as a UI expression, and only Apple were allowed to use them. What about the dock? Windows 7 takes a LOT of cues from the OSX dock, and it is much improved because of it. Consumers win when companies are 1-upping each other, not when they are suing each other.
john

What, exactly, did RIM “steal”? I am quite sure they created their own code and their background task management system. Does the UI closely resemble WebOS? Yes. Should that be patentable? Hell, no. Imagine where PCs would be if the concept of windows were patented as a UI expression, and only Apple were allowed to use them. What about the dock? Windows 7 takes a LOT of cues from the OSX dock, and it is much improved because of it. Consumers win when companies are 1-upping each other, not when they are suing each other.

http://twitter.com/meineVwenigkeit Goran Atanasovski

Just that Apple wasn’t the company that invented this metaphor. It’s just another thing that Stevie got as an “inspiration” (like many others) while visiting the Xerox Research Labs.

I also am not a friend of too many patents, but this thing really seems to be a carbon copy… In the tech world I think it would be more than enough to limit the duration of such patents to 3 years.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

-1 You are a moron… Hp’s attention could still entirely be on improving webOS and still sue BB… You do realize the developmental team for webOS would not be involved at all right? Their legal team would… FAIL POINT. It was a decent attempt to have an original opinion though…

john

First, name-calling does not make you sound like you have a better argument. It makes you sound desperate and lacking in self-control.

Now, in theory, you are right about the two departments being separate. But there are couple of realities to look at in practice. First, most corporations operate using cost centers. So, even if the legal team is doing the work, the cost of the lawsuit will be assigned to the Palm cost center, reducing resources for other areas, like R&D. Is this a for-sure fact? No. I don’t work for HP, and I am not certain that this is how they operate, but it is likely.

Second, and more to the point, is that history shows a trend that does not match up with your assertion. There is a strong correlation between increased protectionism and reduced innovation at corporations. That is, when companies go into protection mode, they often show a decrease in innovation. Now, the causation may be the opposite. It could be that a lack of innovation forces a company into protection mode because that is the only way they can survive. Either way, it’s a correlation I don’t want to see at HP. I’d rather have them say, “Pfaw. You think that’s cool? Check THIS out!” Leaders rarely have much to fear from imitators because they have an advantage that the imitators can’t imitate: the lead. As long as HP keeps breaking new ground, RIM, Meego, and other imitators will always be following suit.

And, if HP drops the ball, I’d prefer to see someone pick it up, instead of running scared from lawsuits. “Ideas” were never meant to be patented. Originally, designs received patents, not ideas. Patenting the card metaphor is patenting an idea. It should be the code behind it, the actual design and expression, that receives patent protection. After all, the card metaphor itself is an evolution of the window metaphor. The customizable WebOS dock has a lot in common with OSX. Should HP/Palm be paying a bunch of money to MS and Apple?

Patent wars over these broad concepts do no one any good. They cost corporations millions of dollars. They bring technology advancement to a standstill. They reduce competition. They drive up prices and slow down feature expansion for consumers. In the end, HP’s lawsuit would drag on for years, far beyond the point that it actually matters. RIM would fire back with their own lawsuits for the patents that Palm violates. Both OSs would continue for years, and by the time this is resolved, no one would care anymore.

So, like I said, just compete already. HP has billions and billions of dollars at it’s disposal that it can use to make RIM obsolete. The innovation will be cheaper than the lawsuits, and better for consumers.

ShmungerWOS

You got a point I disagree.

http://www.facebook.com/jason.geiger Jason Geiger

The “I’ll Sue” mentality isn’t the fastest road to recognition or money. It might be more prudent to offer RIM the ability to license WebOS which allows them to keep this interface. That way WebOS makes money years before HP would see a cent.

There’s no doubt that the interface is nearly identical. Who knows what RIM was thinking? They missed their chance for buying Palm which would have saved their shoddy & outdated OS.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

We aren’t saying they need to be sued… We are talking about taking legal action… And forcing RIM to buy licenses for it would fall under that category…

JMO

HP has their head so far up their a*s that they are probably unaware that this is even going on. At least someone is pushing out new hardware with the dopest OS. Thanks RIM! Now HP, shut up and make me some printers bitcches!!

JDM

I have to laugh at your printer comment! I thought of HP as a printer company as well until someone pointed out their computers. A bonafide lol from me.
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

troll

palmuse

I think it is a blatant ripoff, but I am not sure what legal action can be taken. I liken it to windows on computers. What company today doesn’t use them? What company invented them?

If BB ripped of some direct code or specific patent, then HP will likely sue. If they just copied the look of the os, not sure what can happen.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

Wow do you know anything about licensing? Windows is made by Microsoft… Which SELLS copies of it to all computer manufacturers… Dell and Toshiba aren’t just ripping off Windows from somebody else… God the ignorance of today’s consumers…

Smacks

I think Palmuse is referring to the concept of a window in a graphical user interface. All modern consumer operating systems use the window idea as part of their interface.

That all goes back to the Gates/Jobs/Xerox PARC business.
Smacks

I think Palmuse is referring to the concept of a window in a graphical user interface. All modern consumer operating systems use the window idea as part of their interface.

That all goes back to the Gates/Jobs/Xerox PARC business.
Smacks

I think Palmuse is referring to the concept of a window in a graphical user interface. All modern consumer operating systems use the window idea as part of their interface.

That all goes back to the Gates/Jobs/Xerox PARC business.
Smacks

I think Palmuse is referring to the concept of a window in a graphical user interface. All modern consumer operating systems use the window idea as part of their interface.

That all goes back to the Gates/Jobs/Xerox PARC business.

Mary

I think so. And seeing as not the entire world is familiar with webOS, if the palmpad is released later people would think it was a copy. Not cool.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

+1 People fail to realize that having this Playbook come out first with an OS this similar to WebOS will hurt peoples opinions of the palmpad by saying it is a copy cat.

Mary

I think so. And seeing as not the entire world is familiar with webOS, if the palmpad is released later people would think it was a copy. Not cool.
Mary

I think so. And seeing as not the entire world is familiar with webOS, if the palmpad is released later people would think it was a copy. Not cool.
Timtom

They have a patent application for the card metaphor multitasking, which I do not believe has been granted yet. So, they can’t take legal action. It’s just now a matter of who races to market first and who wins the larger mindshare with their tablet products.

HP has taken what I would consider a huge risk by limiting their HP Slate 500 release and waiting longer to release a webOS tablet. The hope and expectation is that the webOS delivers for HP and timely.
Timtom

They have a patent application for the card metaphor multitasking, which I do not believe has been granted yet. So, they can’t take legal action. It’s just now a matter of who races to market first and who wins the larger mindshare with their tablet products.

HP has taken what I would consider a huge risk by limiting their HP Slate 500 release and waiting longer to release a webOS tablet. The hope and expectation is that the webOS delivers for HP and timely.

John

Palm is slacking with production. Palm is too late. How many different mp3 players resemble ipod. Survival of the fittest & palm is the little fish. Sad to say, palm owner past 10 years

Shane

Okay, so I say no. Reason being that HP/Palm is the Pioneer of multitasking. And soon, hopefully soon, HP/Palm will give us another extraordinary device-Not a Tablet phone so I don’t have to buy custom jeans to fit one of those things in my pockets:p. What I’m trying to say is.. What is the best has Research In Motion Ltd. accomplished? The Blackberry Storm, Torch? Oh please. Have a heart. Give it to them. Yes, they should add a little RIM touch to it. That’s just my “two cents”.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

Just because RIM has been on a downhill doesn’t mean that this should be ignored… The Playbook is getting tons of hype and if released before the PalmPad will definitely cast a shadow over PalmPad’s release as it will look like a “Copy Cat” device to the Playbook…

SirKuttin

HP has money to market the heck out of their products. Lets just hope they do so and hope everybody who does reviews speaks of how rip off like the blackberry stuff has been lately. RIM is just horrid. i can’t fathom ever buying something from them. I just don’t think HP is worried. I am still pissed at RIM though.

Wedipsettin

it’s funny how much I hate RIM yet they made a bootleg version of webos which is my life…. This type of things gets under my skin.. I hate BB with my heart… They are garbage and a horrible OS!

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

+1 Agreed… I got a curve… Loved it for a day… Then hated it with constant freezes, awful applications, and general lag that occured even when all I was doing was texting…

Jjapplesque

When I saw this on Engadget, my heart jumped at the thought because I thought it was WEBOS and not some shoddy, crap remake of the original. Blackberry has never won my heart and RIM is just horrible. I can’t begin to explain how spotty and difficult it is to do much with it. I say sue them, have some people take care of it while they work, isn’t that what the masters of multitasking do? lol

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

+1

Jkdj2010

There will always be copycats. If not RIM, then it would have been someone else. Taking legal action will only waste time and money. Something better would be to just stay ahead of the competition and keep making the card system better.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

-1 Yes there will always be copycats… But if the theft is substantial enough legal action should take place…

john

What theft???? It’s not like RIM stole code. They implemented many of the same UI concepts using their own code and background methods. So, no, the “theft” is not substantial enough, especially since it is so far behind.

Mike C.

I’d like to believe that HP/Palm has some new features in store for a tablet version of webOS that will make RIM’s copying moot. They copied an existing OS, hopefully not the version that’ll be used in the PalmPad. I say let them go head-to-head and let the consumer decide which tablet they like best.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

WebOS isn’t the talk of the town… I wouldn’t want to give the Playbook any advantage to outsell the PalmPad… We all know here that the PalmPad will be better, but consumers don’t care about functionality… They buy what they are told to buy, and most people won’t care at all about the PalmPad unless HP can develop some SERIOUS hype… But Blackberry is already a household name, while Palm is an ancient name…
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

WebOS isn’t the talk of the town… I wouldn’t want to give the Playbook any advantage to outsell the PalmPad… We all know here that the PalmPad will be better, but consumers don’t care about functionality… They buy what they are told to buy, and most people won’t care at all about the PalmPad unless HP can develop some SERIOUS hype… But Blackberry is already a household name, while Palm is an ancient name…
http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

WebOS isn’t the talk of the town… I wouldn’t want to give the Playbook any advantage to outsell the PalmPad… We all know here that the PalmPad will be better, but consumers don’t care about functionality… They buy what they are told to buy, and most people won’t care at all about the PalmPad unless HP can develop some SERIOUS hype… But Blackberry is already a household name, while Palm is an ancient name…

Jescandalo

This a perfect example of why we have not seen anything from HP/Palm! They came out at CES 2009 with this amazing WebOS and it seems that many of the Phone Manufacturers have stolen some feature from WebOS. I think now HP/Palm are hiding their “cards” until they are ready to reveal their hand. I hope they the Royal Flush we are all hoping for. As far as if they should sue RIM…….why not, it seems blatant that copied WebOS. Even using the terminology!! It is just wrong.

http://www.facebook.com/rappleby18 Robert Appleby

+1 I never thought about that… Hopefully you are right and they will blow away the world with their next products…

J. Willis

@robert fanboy, enough said…and for the record almost no one on here knows what they’re talking about

Anonymous

Well this is obviously a pretty heated topic.I never thought that a late night post like this would have grabbed so much attention. Thanks for all the good points you all have made. Maybe an in depth article on this matter backed up with some facts and examples of past IP court battles is in order? Anybody interested in that?
Brian K

Palm doesn’t even need to win a case against rim. Just claiming it publicly as their own will prevent RIM from stealing the limelight at a time when Palm is preparing to push into the mass consumer audience. I think they will absolutely file suit against RIM, it’s just not the right time. They will do it once the playbook is out and they want to knock the wind out of RIM’s sail and showcase their own tablet device along with webos. They need wait for a number of reasons, most notably the fact that they have little to entice people away from the playbook. Playing this card too soon will just make this a wall street journal headline and most consumers will not take notice. Lets revisit this issue in 3-4 months.
Jjapplesque

I think that HP/Palm should get to it by confronting them when they get the green light via lawyer implications. I am not one to start fights but I actually like webOS and what it represents. I seriously would take another Pixi or Pre over any other phone right now, and if it comes to this when the PalmPad or whatever it maybe called when it arrives, that would be one I would choose simply because of the system it provides. I don’t want a carbon copy of crap from RIM when they weren’t the original creators.

I only feel this way simply because of the issues it creates. Palm may be slowed down because of its acquisition by HP but they have had time and I can see they are pulling the punches last minute because of their lack of funds, and this “new” OS that RIM developed for the PlayBook is definitely a hindrance, simply by means of “plagiarism.” I seriously thought this was the new PalmPad thing that everyone was talking about but it wasn’t and it shocked the hell out of me.

Legal issues and court discussions remain where they be, I have no legal standing on it all but I just want to believe that they will do what they can for it because webOS and Palm and HP need to be put out there. I saw five people in a Sprint store, two customers, three employees all with Pre’s and I was the only one with a Pixi but they all were talking about their phones and explaining to each other what webOS 2.0 will bring. That was JUST Tuesday afternoon. There are people out there, loyalists, die-hards, even. I think HP/Palm will bring it all out on the table 2011, if not, then sometime VERY VERY soon, enough to put a damper on RIM’s blatant disregard for honesty.
rman12

Maybe the reason why HP/Palm is not doing anything right now is because they want RIM to market the Cards, multitasking and everything else they’ve copied then when RIM finally released the device, HP/Palm will then sue RIM. At that point, everyone is aware of what webOS can do so HP/Palm only needs to spend little money on marketing webOS?
Jeremy

I don’t like the fact that rim does this but when you think about it a card is nothing more than an open application. And when you get right down to it the shape would look like a card. How else would they do it little octagons for open apps. Besides we know pre did it first and did it the best and now with 2.0 it’s even better. I didn’t see rim doing any stacks.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Gill/1474567059 Michael Gill

yes they should take action.
Abraham Arango

Man, there’s a lot of omments!! Sue them bros over at RIM!!!
Abraham Arango

Man, there’s a lot of omments!! Sue them bros over at RIM!!!
Kaznai

I think yes for the simple fact that Blackberry has much more marketshare than Palm, tablets have all the world’s attention, and people that aren’t in the know are straight ignorant. All they will see when HP finally does make a name for webOS is a playbook ripoff.

Should HP/Palm Take Legal Action?

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